207 分 | 作者 thisislife2 1天前
14 条评论
- zootboy 1天前And this is why "mandatory app to configure" is an instant dealbreaker for me for any piece of hardware. Don't buy crap like this. Force companies to be better.
- userbinator 1天前I haven't been in the market for a WiFi router for a long time so I thought all the consumer stuff still used a web server for config. Enterprise stuff is either the same or has a serial port. In any case, it doesn't make sense to require a separate app that they also have to spend resources maintaining when their users will already have a browser they can use, so I suspect the only reason is the app collects usage information that they can sell...
On the bright side, maybe someone can get Claude or some other LLM to figure out how to crack it; and perhaps even vibe-code an alternative app.
- giancarlostoro 1天前> On the bright side, maybe someone can get Claude or some other LLM to figure out how to crack it; and perhaps even vibe-code an alternative app.
LLMs are great for this, though the more people use it for blackhat style things, the more I fear they will lockdown LLMs which are useful for reversing things that are legacy as heck and abandonware.
- sanex 1天前I listened to an interview with the guy who nearly cured his dog's cancer with ai and he expressed concern multiple times that going public with the story would cause the labs to cut off the ability.
- hypfer 20小时前For reference for other readers, here's the primary source: https://x.com/paul_conyngham/status/2036940410363535823
Also, thanks for mentioning! I wasn't aware of this
- gaiagraphia 13小时前Thanks for this. Absolutely incredible read.
I'm really hoping these new tools will empower a new generation of people. It's sad that there even needs to be a term 'citizen scientist'.
- SturgeonsLaw 18小时前Wow, that is one of the best use cases for AI I've seen. I wonder what the cost of all that was.
- smallpipe 18小时前What is it with the AI bros that seemingly can’t write two pages without their precious LLM doing it for them. It could be a genuinely cool story, but I’m just put off by the LLMism everywhere
- hypfer 18小时前Tbf in this case it might also just be that the guy talked _extensively_ over years with those LLMs, shaping language.
At least nothing tipped me off for that specific text. What did you see?
- Reason077 1天前Nearly?
- Dylan16807 1天前It greatly shrank some of the tumors but not all.
- veeti 17小时前I've been doing some light reverse engineering with Chinese models on Opencode and have found they are already far less reluctant. Just don't ask about Taiwan..
- ssl-3 1天前Regular consumers increasingly use apps to do stuff instead of web browsers. They seem to prefer it this way.
And at least for connected devices at home, a dedicated app can have lower friction for initial setup for the "I'm not a computer person" crowd than other alternatives do.
(I know, I know. It's terrible. It even feels something like betrayal sometimes. But that's how it be, anyway -- and you and I are powerless to do anything about it.)
- userbinator 1天前They seem to prefer it this way.
Strong doubt. What's lower friction, "visit this address in your browser and login to start configuring" vs. "go download this app, open it, possibly log in and register an account, add 'your' device, and only then start to configure it"?
Let's also not forget the possible chicken-and-egg situation of needing the Internet to download an app to setup your new router to access the Internet...
- jonathanlydall 20小时前I’d never defend the lack of web based configuration, but there is an argument to be made that if the app uses Bluetooth to communicate with a router (though I don’t know if that’s true in this case), it is inarguably easier to configure for the average person who is intimidated by having to work with an IP address in any way.
- ssl-3 1天前You're obviously one of those computer people.
- zmgsabst 21小时前No — regular people use QR codes all the time.
Point your phone at the QR sticker on the router, click open, boom you’re on the config page!
That’s a faster experience, doesn’t require any searching, doesn’t require wondering if you downloaded the right app, doesn’t require you sign up, etc.
Your claim people prefer apps to QR codes is highly doubtful.
- ssl-3 21小时前> Your claim people prefer apps to QR codes
I claimed what?
- zmgsabst 20小时前You claimed they don’t like browser based flows — of which QR codes are the common low friction, smartphone friendly implementation/entrypoint.
Ie, what normal people use regularly every day.
- Natfan 13小时前because apps can't use their own protocol:// and use QR codes within their native apps? sorry but this comment doesn't seem to make sense
- punchmesan 10小时前The point he's making is that a QR-based flow that doesn't require downloading and installing an app, and instead uses the already-installed web browser, is even lower friction and can be used by ordinary folks just as well, if not better, thanks to having fewer friction points. Requiring an installed proprietary app to manage a physical device that would otherwise be manageable via a web interface is not a net improvement to the usability or accessibility of the product. Especially if it's something you set and forget, "normies" are not going to go back to that app for a very long time and likely will forget about it. Hard requiring app setup for a router is a play to sell usage and location data, it is not looking out for those that aren't "computer people".
- brewdad 6小时前I've had more QR codes direct me to my device's app store than I have to a web site lately.
- ssl-3 7小时前On one hand: A thing that requires an app for setup does not necessarily require a login to some new party's outside service; it often gets shaped that way, but it does not need to be that way.
On the other hand: A thing that requires a web browser for setup does not necessarily allow strictly-local configuration; it often gets shaped that way, but it does not have to be that way.
There's no rule or law that says that these things have to be one way or another. It's a moot distinction.
> Hard requiring app setup for a router is a play to sell usage and location data,
Speaking of moot points: It's a router. And by "router," I mean: It's a whole-ass black-box computer with some Ethernet ports, a collection of radios, and an Internet connection. If/when companies decide to be in the business of selling usage and location data, they don't need an app to do that. They can just package it up and send it forth. (Location? From wifi? Yeah, that's been a solved problem for a long time now. It was first demonstrated to me in 2008 with the OG iPod Touch, which lacked both GPS and Bluetooth, but did an amazingly-good job of delivering the beholder's location using a combination of observed wifi signals and a central database.)
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Moving on:
I guess we can talk about things like web browsers, IP addresses, QR codes, and SSIDs, and setting up routers using our pocket supercomputers.
Old way: Fire up router, manually connect to its SSID (it used to be wide-open; these days, there's usually a password printed on a label instead), set it up with a browser, and then at the right points manually connect to the newly-configured SSID instead, and [optionally] manually go to the new address (if chosen) to continue configuration (if necessary). Manually remove the old factory SSID for cleanliness. (I cut my teeth on this method and I like it just fine, but I'm one of those computer people.)
QR+browser way: Fire up router. Connect to its SSID with a QR code. Connect to its web interface by scanning another QR code. Configure the thing. Connect to the new SSID manually (or perhaps invent a workflow to scan and use a QR code using only 1 pocket supercomputer). Optionally continue configuration by remembering the name/IP of the device, or maybe printing a QR code or something. Manually remove the old factory SSID for cleanliness. (Login to third-party server at some stage? Yeah, maybe. See above.)
App way: Fire up router. Download app using familiar processes (perhaps including a QR code). App temporarily connects to router's default SSID. User uses app to configure router. At the right times, the app automatically disconnects from the old SSID, adds the new SSID to the network list, and reconnects using the new address (if selected). Optionally, continue configuring the device using the app. (Login to third party server at some point? Yeah, maybe. Again, see above.)
- jeffbee 23小时前Cloud command and control is obviously a better user experience, and it is much more secure.
- zmgsabst 21小时前There is no way in which opening external control is more secure than local-only control.
What is this FUD?
- jeffbee 6小时前I would say the list of ways that cloud relays are superior to local interfaces is pretty long. I don't want a router that will ever accept a connection of any kind, under any circumstances. I definitely do not want a router with a web app and authorization/authentication data that can be tampered with by drive-by attacks in my web browser.
- JumpCrisscross 18小时前> What is this FUD?
For whatever it's worth, I associate the term FUD with crypto bros. Both of you simply stated an assertion at fact and then flipped out when someone deigned to defy that. Maybe argue your points properly?
- SturgeonsLaw 18小时前FUD existed before them. So did the word crypto, as a matter of fact.
That's two things they ruined.
While we're at it, I think them claiming the term Web 3.0 is very self-aggrandizing.
- JumpCrisscross 17小时前> FUD existed before them. So did the word crypto, as a matter of fact
Yup. But as a broad signal, is the person getting uppity about FUD usually making a valid point or safe to ignore?
- ssl-3 9小时前It depends on whether you or not you like the cut of their jib.
- userbinator 18小时前I think the comment you're replying to is missing a /s
- zrm 1天前> And at least for connected devices at home, a dedicated app can have lower friction for initial setup for the "I'm not a computer person" crowd than other alternatives do.
For a router? This is the device that you will often not have internet access with which to download an app until after it's configured. Many people have wired internet specifically because they live somewhere with poor cellular reception. Meanwhile the device can give out DHCP and use the standard captive portal mechanisms to automatically direct any client device to its configuration page.
- ssl-3 23小时前Yep. For a router.
I didn't say that I thought it was right, or fair, or just. I didn't say I liked it, or that I agree with it.
In fact, I think it's a pretty ugly state of affairs when a person in an area of poor connectivity needs to climb the hill/go into town/otherwise make plans before they can get their shiny new router to work.
I can accept that things are the way they are, or I can pretend that they're different.
Acceptance seems to be a lot more honest.
- zrm 19小时前You made the claim that companies require apps because it has lower friction for ordinary users. That claim is in error.
The implication that there is nothing anyone can do to improve the existing state of affairs is also incorrect.
- ssl-3 9小时前> You made the claim that companies require apps because it has lower friction for ordinary users.
I did not.
> That claim is in error.
My motivation to further discuss a hallucination is insignificant.
- somat 23小时前If only the app could be stored on the router.
Unfortunately the only tech stack that can do this is the web, (serial/remote shell comes close).
In fact I regard this as the major failure of the app method of program deliverance. Why do you need to install them at all? It should be like the web, hit an address load the app. It is why I am thankful that the web was not developed as a commercial project. No for-profit entity would have let it escape their control like that. It would have been designed exactly like the app system for phones is. enforced central blessed "app-stores" and manual install processes.
- post_below 21小时前I'm not sure they prefer it. I think tech companies have been pushing apps as the default solution for a long time and people accept it because they just want to do whatever thing is locked behind the app.
If the default was something else I suspect people would accept that too, especially if it was lower friction.
I'd say typing a few characters into an address bar (or scanning a QR code) is, at the least, not higher friction than downloading an app and creating an account.
- Reason077 1天前> “It suddenly stopped working, and no one knows why.”
Based on the screenshots I’m going to hazard a guess that it’s because someone forgot to update, or just stopped paying for, the server license.
- bombcar 1天前If these apps were entirely local nobody'd care.
The insistence they go through a server is why they suck
- saratogacx 9小时前So many things rely on date bound certificates now that local doesn't assure continued operation, see the recent Mac Office 2019 stories. I feel like there are so many of these ticking time bombs that expired cert based software failures are going to become a much more common issue.
- GolfPopper 13小时前Or a key employee who was handling that died, quit, or was fired.
- WarOnPrivacy 7小时前According to Google Play reviews for the MotoSync+ app, this issue is
A June 4th review says this:due to server license expiring, after the host ended operations and has been in play since at least May 12
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.motosyncpl...The latest issue is "Server Licence Expired". I have been unable to manage devices for months. So..I reset my router. I no longer have a mesh network. I have only the single point router and still unable to manage devices. The licence verification issue continues. I found out this is because a 3rd party managed the Server and folded. 3 weeks of almost daily Chat promises to connect to a specialist which never materializes. I left some chats open for hours. - criticalfault 1天前there is an explanation: Motorola is extremely bad at software.
opinion based on their support system, correspondence and android updates,
- Reason077 1天前These WiFi products and the associated app aren’t actually from Motorola.
As mentioned in the article, they are products of Premier LogiTech, LLC, who have licensed the Motorola brand name.
- Gualdrapo 1天前I don't know, my first "smart" phone was a Motorola Atrix 4G. You know, that one with (one of) the first fingerprint scanner and that thingy that allowed you to dock it to something like a laptop and thus you'd have a working laptop thingy.
Its wifi/bt card broke exactly one year after I bought it. It worked exactly for 365 days. That was 100% hardware failure and planned obsolescence.
Needless to say never bought not even looked at anything Motorola ever since.
- ssl-3 1天前There is no singular Motorola. The company has been spinning off different parts of itself for quite a long time.
In 2011/2012, it was divided into different parts. The biggest were Motorola Solutions (mostly focused 2-way radios and related communications infrastructure; stuff commonly used by public safety entities) and Motorola Mobility (mostly cell phones and related stuff).
Google bought Motorola Mobility. It has been said that this was because Google wanted their patent portfolio. In 2014, Google sold Motorola Mobility to Lenovo: The same Lenovo that makes ThinkPads is also who makes Motorola phones today.
Somewhere along the line, their name also got licensed out for home networking bits. That appears to be the products that the Mashable article writes about. This history is murkier, but it appears that some combination of Premier LogiTech and Boundless Devices (whoever tf these companies are) is responsible for making the Motorola-branded routers in question.
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tl;dr, the Motorola that makes the radios that cops carry on their hip, the Motorola that makes Android phones that consumers carry in their pocket, and the Motorola that makes home routers are not the same company. Like -- at all.
Conflating them is easy because it is, frankly, a confusing mess.
But still: The shitty software on a Motorola phone is not cut from the same cloth as the shitty software on a Motorola router. They're products of very different companies that share nothing but a common trademark.
- kotaKat 16小时前Ah yes, just like that time Kodak licensed their name out to make checks... air purifiers? (Bonus points: their brand licensee on most of that crap is now out of business.)
https://www.kodak.com/en/consumer/page/support/
(Or Memorex electric scooters. That's also an 'okay then...' license...)
- ssl-3 8小时前Sorta. It's both different and harder to track than that.
Kodak is in bad shape. They were exquisitely focused on cradle-to-grave film products: Ideally, a person used Kodak cameras that were loaded with Kodak film that was processed with Kodak chemicals on Kodak machines before being printed on Kodak paper using more Kodak machines and chemicals, and all of this but the picture-taking happened within Kodak facilities.
They had their finger on this market for a very long time. But ship that once delivered their bread and butter has sank, and nobody is going to build a new one (not for Kodak, nor for anyone else -- some folks still shoot on film and will continue to do so for as long as it is possible, but it's never "coming back").
Meanwhile, Motorola Solutions (stock ticker MSI) is alive and well. They're still based in Illinois, and they're still doing good work in the 2-way radio space and -- most importantly -- selling radios and back-end gear. They're not in the consumer products game anymore, but it's perfectly OK to make money selling expensive stuff to businesses and governments. (That's a pretty common position; it just happens to be one that isn't particularly visible.)
The situation with Motorola-branded routers is closer to that of General Electric, I suppose: GE licensed/sold their consumer-goods division a long time ago; the GE-branded products on the shelf at the store are, at present, products of Haier. But portions of the old GE still produce things like jet engines and power-generation turbines -- big, expensive stuff for solving big, expensive problems.
- JumpCrisscross 18小时前Is there really no jurisdiction in which this is illegal?
- somat 13小时前Give it a try, take Motorola to small claims court. don't be greedy but see if you can get them to spend a couple thousand in lawyer expenses for a couple hundred of claim.
- hulitu 13小时前I wish people would read EULAs and TOS's.
- kstrauser 11小时前A EULA or TOS doesn’t give them permission to break the law.
- WarOnPrivacy 23小时前
AFAIK, more Motorola routers are installed by cable ISPs than anywhere else. Many or most have WiFi. I can't imagine cable installers are futzing with a phone app.the Motorola MotoSync+ app is required to set up all new compatible WiFi routers released by Motorola- yonatan8070 21小时前You'd be surprised, at work we recently had a contractor install a new office network (growing startup upgrading from the home grade units we had before), they recommended HP Aruba Instant On, and the guy did all the setup on his phone with their app.
Now that it's my network to manage, I have to say that while it's a huge upgrade from the TP-Link Deco units we had before, the cloud management just makes it worse. The web UI is slow, probably because every click requires a round trip from my laptop, to a datacenter somewhere, to the router/switch/AP 5m away from me, back to the datacenter, and back to my laptop.
- WarOnPrivacy 8小时前You may be more right (and me more wrong) than you know. Another comment said their parent's ISP-provided router requires a phone to config.
- yonatan8070 7小时前This is also the case for the TP-Link Decos we were using, you can only configure and manage them from the app, no local web UI in sight*
And it's not like a mobile app unlocked some new features that couldn't be implemented in a browser. The app is slow, sluggish, and basic things like adding a DHCP reservation took multiple tries to succeed, each taking an agonizingly long time of watching a spinner.
If you contrast this with my home MikroTik, the UI is less "your grandma could configure it" simple, but it's fast, available over local web, SSH, desktop app, mobile app, and I think also an API, and has every feature I can think of from basic bridging to complex routing and firewalling.
* there was a very basic web UI that I recall had like 1 or 2 settings, don't remember which exactly.
- megous 1天前Ridiculous to have no way to configure a router via some normal method, like local web UI or serial/ssh console, or whatnot. Even more ridiculous this app does not satisfy itself with a local wifi/bt link to the router, and needs some "server" with "expiring license" whatever that is. Triple ridiculous this costs more than $50.
- xhkkffbf 1天前I don't know what happened here, but if someone told me that a manager fired all of the dev team and replaced them with cheaper overseas replacements, I wouldn't be surprised.
- obscurette 1天前Years ago a small telco I worked for bought an equipment from rather reputable manufacturer at some point. A year or so later we discovered a grave bug in the software. There was a month or so silence from manufacturer and they just bought all equipment back. We found out later that entire team working on this equipment was fired during restructuring by accident (!) and there wasn't any knowledge about this equipment left in the company.
- userbinator 1天前It would've been even cheaper if they didn't need a dedicated app at all.
- HotGarbage 1天前AI replacements
- cr125rider 1天前The original AI anyway
- effnorwood 12小时前explanation - they made wifi routers?
- WarOnPrivacy 8小时前Sure. Many ISP-provided, Motorola routers have integrated wifi. Here's a few.
ARRIS SURFboard SBG6580 MG7700, MG7550-30, MG7315, ML240 (cellular)
- jeffbee 23小时前Without minimizing the impact, we should not blow it out of proportion, either. It sounds like every existing installed device continues to work. "Bricked" is used too expansively here.
- swiftcoder 19小时前If you walk into a BestBuy and purchase a new one today, it arrives pre-bricked. That seems to meet the definition just fine
- jeffbee 12小时前That's not what bricked means. Bricked is a one-way trip to permanent non-function. For example, overwriting the firmware with firmware that can't boot and also can't update again.
The events in the article are a simple, transient backend malfunction.
- swiftcoder 12小时前“Bricked” is always a matter of perspective. Sure, the manufacturer can almost always unbrick a device, but the end user here cannot, because the manufacturer is not supplying the requisite tools
- Innittech 1天前[dead]
- _HMCB_ 22小时前Probably AI.
- b212 15小时前Motorola was my last Android phone. Once they pushed an update that took 99% of my phones memory and I couldn’t install even a single app - I moved to iPhone and never looked back. Over 10 years and counting. I still can’t believe they literally bricked my phone back then.
So far Apple “just works”. Is it perfect? No. But I can’t imagine fuckup of this magnitude from them.
- realusername 13小时前To each their own, I moved back to Android from iOS because it "just works", having to factory reset my device to install apps again after an iOS update was the last straw.
- kakacik 15小时前Many things in Android sphere 'just work', we have open standards and market forces to thank for that.
apple airpods pro 2nd gen 'just don't work' with say samsung phones (s24 in our case) - constant disconnections, pairing fails maybe 50% of the time. Come with apple phone to very same plugs, and they 'just work'. Over effin' bluetooth that chinese plugs for 10 bucks have figured out better.
Wake me up when I can go on filesystem and copy to my computer any damn file I want from the device running unix kernel that I supposedly own, like photos and videos I took, over open standard usb.
I am surprised, all the European brands like Miele, Siemens, Bosch, etc. household appliances work fine without an app. Most that we have now do have an option to connect to WiFi, we never connected them and they all work fine with good old buttons like it's 1985.
https://youtu.be/5M_hmwBBPnc
Though my main point is, that it is not hard to find products that work fine without an app. E.g. I just checked the Bosch site and could find many models that support delayed start, etc. with on-device buttons. In fact, the one that I picked somewhat randomly, the primary feature the app adds is that you can start the dishwasher remotely, which is the only feature I'd expect to need an app for.
(I completely believe that some of these manufacturers will also have models where they save on on-device buttons/displays by requiring an app.)
For instance, our home HVAC shipped with blatant firmware bugs that eat blower fans, lock up compressors, etc, but take a few years to do it and access to the hidden service menu to diagnose.
Eventually, I broke down and put it online to get the firmware update (after a $500-1000 fix "in warranty").
(It's a Bryant.)
However, I can also use the dials much like I did with our old appliances. There is nothing locked out and we actually used them offline for a few weeks (tbh I didn't try setting the finish time using the appliances' controls).
In Jeff's case that's obviously not the case, but there are still options from BSH. As with everything, one has to be careful in what they buy these days. Don't interpret this as victim blaming: I hate that we have to be careful with these traps.
Edit: There are of course alternative manufacturers, but BSH ist a known quantity regarding quality. And when it comes to cloud stuff I trust them a little bit more than other manufacturers; they're actually the only smart thing we own that's not blocked in my OpnSense.
There are at least a dozen combos I have never used.
It required a damn proprietary phone app, which I assume was bouncing commands through the internet.
Your best option is to purchase your own cable modem/router and quit renting that garbage hardware from Comcast.
Or kick them to the curb and go cableless using Verizon with a router that's worth paying for.
They've been having connection hiccups and blaming the old independent router/modem even though I suspect the problem is somewhere further on.
You probably meant "I want no frills product because of its simplicity, not because its cheap" but when that feedback reaches a PM, they'll only hear "I will pay more to not have a camera or a mic".
I want a very good washing machine with frills, but it want it to wash well and quietly without needing to be configured from my phone over wifi.
Nobody wants to admit it, but they are more home decor and geewhiz BS than practical appliance for several decades now. You'll be perfectly fine buying cheap barebones models if you are repair savvy. Choosing colors and materials like black or white and stainless steel is "boring", but only if the surrounding space is already ugly.
I've had the same no name amazon special washer and dryer for almost 15 years now. Reviews were 3/5 stars at the time. People complained about belts slipping and hinges breaking. I just fixed them with parts on ebay. They still look and run like new.
Same for anything else. I don't see the whole "oh you need firmware update to improve the product". 90% of the time it just works.
So what happens if the fridge isn't given internet access ? Or washing machine?
Dishwashers, refrigerators, even (and perhaps especially) cars.
"Just don't connect it to the Internet," is sadly less viable option as time goes on.
I feel compelled to quibble with your word choice here. Not connecting appliances to the Internet remains a viable option. It is simply one that is increasingly not common or not readily available.
"less viable option as time goes on" is pretty much "remains a viable option, increasingly not common"
?
To me, "less viable" implies there some outside factor or internal failure preventing it from working. But non-internet appliances will continue to work just fine, if you can get one. I.e. it's a viable choice, just one with less and less availability.
HP fixed a remote exploit a few years back. Theoretically someone could use your local wifi printer to install a persistent backdoor on your network. In practice HP uses updates to patch leaks in their cartridge protection (the most complicated tech in the printers). And accidentally sometimes bricks printers...
Have you ever considered upgrading your refrigerator? Washing machine? Kettle? A router is a transparent appliance to most people.
It's sorta like checking if spare parts are available for your refrigerator or washing machine.
Luckily, many (but certainly not all) continental West-European ISPs allow you to lease a Fritz!Box or you can buy one in a store and hook it up [1]. Perfect router/modem for consumers (not too complicated), can be configured through a web interface, and the hardware and software is developed by a German company.
[1] Many European countries have router/modem freedom, so an ISP cannot block you if you want to hook up your own gear. E.g. quite some tech people here use their own XGS-PON fiber ONT or at least their own router + modem.
I was reluctant to recommend them by name because I know there are other good ISPs, some are cheaper, some are more expensive, some operate only in certain areas (if they do not use Openreach local loops).
Jun 08 00:23:10 zalgor kernel: [UFW BLOCK] IN=enp0s31f6 OUT= MAC=01:02:03:04:05:06:07:08:09:10:11:12:13:14 SRC=192.168.178.1 DST=224.0.0.1 LEN=36 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=1 ID=53621 DF PROTO=2 ... from my German residence right now.
Just the last one, out of gazillions. It's a proprietary protocol for finding their other proprietary stuff in the LAN for home automation, meshing (also proprietary).
It's also almost useless for more complex internal setups.
Rather logspammy if you ask me.
One doesn't have that with other, more technical options. There is also less and less need for the "DSL- (or cable-) modem part, since fibre tends to be plain old ethernet.
Also the ownership of AVM recently changed. I fully excpect ensuing enshittification.
Instead I went with a Gl.inet device with three interfaces.
I've considered it, if I can get fiber here I will definitely get one for my segment, and maybe my resell segment too.
And besides this issue, overall it works great. I recommend this to anyone who asks me about it.
At any rate, I think as much as web vs. app, IMO companies should be forced to support their appliances for a certain time period by law (the EU has rolled out a law to require this for some device types). If it was normal for a router to work for 10 years or a washing machine for 20 years, a vendor should be forced to support it for that amount of time since the last sale.
More and more IP cameras can't be set up without a phone app. TP-Link's Tapo line is really bad about it. Even some Reolink cameras can't be setup on their own.
Now that high quality, affordable brands like Dahua got banned (w/o evidence), there's less pressure on the survivors to not be awful.
More evidence that this isn't about cost at all, but control. Fortunately, the good old-fashioned "dumb" ones that just have a tiny web server to serve their configuration and viewing UI still exist, seemingly at both the ultra-cheap (unbranded/random brand ones from China based on a reference design, built by companies with no desire to host anything) and ultra-expensive (Axis, Bosch, etc.) ends of the market; the middle is entirely filled with the "smart" "cloud" crap.
You are absolutely correct. However, in regards to a phone app there is likely to be 2ndary pressure from data brokers who firehose cash for any data their phone app collects.
The company doesn't have to go away, the app just has to have issues. At least with web apps, you aren't depending on the manufacturer investing in nearly continuous upgrades to work in the rapidly changing phone environment
A web UI will continue to work for decades. And app will likely not last a year without updates.
I just installed 10 Reolinks and I had to set up a phone app for two of them that didn't have an Ethernet connector. Ick.
I have one Tapo and ran their app from an android emulator. I won't buy another.
Stop mandating apps that will eventually break or cease being supported. Give us an OOBE that can be run independent of some mobile app.
- it was more clear when buying a product that an app is required to activate/use/etc a device
- that people who rebelled against this kind of nonsense were backed up by others and respected "more power to you!"